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Ati says | |||
| http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn12026-mars-rover-finds-puddles-on-the-planets-surface.ht From Digg, the rovers found what appear to be puddles of liquid water (though some say they are just very clear ice). It is my opinion, that it might well be liquid judging by the apparant erosion shown in the photograph, as well as the lack of surface traits (scratches, cracks, discolorations, etc. indicative of ice. If this is the case, then there might well be something swimming around in it, which makes me very, very happy deep down inside. YES!! Atu |
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| Total Topic Karma: 27 | - More by this Author | |||
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Ati says |
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| http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=536615119&size;=o High-resolution version of the same. |
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| - Author's History - 10 June, 2007 | |||||
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poss says |
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| clickable links the article high res image |
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| - Author's History - 10 June, 2007 | |||||
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poss says |
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| Ok, as you know ati, I believe there is life on mars. However, i think this is not very likely to be liquid water. It is far more likely to be some other kind of liquid with a lower freezing temperature. Still, Its possible there is some form of life in it, regardless. I still think the most likely place to find life on mars is where the deep deep ice caps meet magma |
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| - Author's History - 10 June, 2007 | |||||
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hail, bonk bonk god of power says |
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now i can live there..  |
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| - Author's History - 10 June, 2007 | |||||
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poss says |
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| your head is halfway up there all ready |
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| - Author's History - 10 June, 2007 | |||||
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Ati says |
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| Well Poss, even if it isn't water, it still doesn't make a lot of sense. Mars isn't cold enough for most of the common gasses to occur there in liquid form, and if they have puddles of anti-freeze on mars, it's going to take even more explaining. Also, in certain areas, it's apparantly possible for the steam produced when the water hits the vacuum to form into a micro-atmostphere, allowing water to stay as a liquid. |
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| - Author's History - 10 June, 2007 | |||||
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QuantumBeep says |
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| Looks like someone stahted the reahctor. |
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| - Author's History - 10 June, 2007 | |||||
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jared.nance says |
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| whatever it is, it appears at first glance to be a liquid due to its clear refractory properties... the appearance of solid terrain 'underneath' the surface of some of the water, as well as what appears to be an inundated region on the left side of the photograph lend credence to the notion that this may very well be a substance in the liquid phase. this is entirely possible for a heavy substance with a very low vapor pressure... perhaps a long chained hydrocarbon of some kind? i do wish that biologists would think outside the goddamned box when it comes to life... why is water so necessary? |
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| - Author's History - 10 June, 2007 | |||||
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Ati says |
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| It looks like a liquid to me. there are clear ripples, and no scratches, cracks, etc. that would be indicitive of ice. Whether it's water or not is an open question, but it sure looks like it. As for 'thinking outside of the box', I quite agree with you. However, all the life we've seen so far is carbon based, and relies on water, so it seems the logical place to start looking. |
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| - Author's History - 10 June, 2007 | |||||
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jared.nance says |
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| certainly i agree that heuristically the natural line of reasoning is to start looking for carbon-based, water supported life. however, i would also point out that all life that we know of has been found on earth. a simple evolutionary argument should suffice to show that basing our search for life on the native species of a planet full of creatures adapted specifically to that planet is bound to wrap us up in errors, eventually. appeal to the drake equation, if you wish, to convince yourself of this. as to the photograph itself, the presence of the 'ripples' actually concerns me somewhat. if, as the article indicates, all of the edges of the 'puddles' were of equal altitude, what would cause the formation of ripples on the surface? on earth, ripples are formed through perturbations of the surface of the fluid, either by flow over features below the surface, or by driving forces above it. in an atmosphereless and zero-flow (if all altitudes are equal) environment, how did the ripples form? |
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| - Author's History - 10 June, 2007 | |||||
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Ati says |
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| Well, the other thing about carbon based life is that it's probably the kind of life we're mostly likely to notice if it comes up and starts chewing on our rovers. A form of life that's based on crystaline structures and takes a few millenium to move around or reproduce is a lot more likely to be ignored and accidentally run over than, say, something swimming in a pool of water. As far as the rippled go, mars is far from atmosphereless. It's about 1% of what we have here, so humans cannot live there, but man they have some nasty wind storms (400+ MPH). Liquid water can only exist on mars where there is no significant wind, so the evaporating water can form an atmosphere. My guess is that the ripples are either caused by the movements of the rover nearby, or by a stray breeze cutting across the micro-atmosphere, or perhaps just the normal wind if it's not actually water, and does nto require no wind. |
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| - Author's History - 10 June, 2007 | |||||
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poss says |
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| I've seen ice, sand and metals with ripples like that. Perhaps whatever process put this anomoly there also created the ripples. It is likely to be an upwelling of some sort, and the force of rising to the surface could well create ripples. | |||||
| - Author's History - 11 June, 2007 | |||||
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Ati says |
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| Well, I don't think it's a solid, given the erosion patterns around it. Also, given the lack of cracks, etc. | |||||
| - Author's History - 11 June, 2007 | |||||
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jared.nance says |
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| ati- it seems to me that given the highly delicate nature of any water micro-environment, any wind at all would destroy it. i would imagine it as something like having acetone on a piece of aluminum... it's hard to say, but most plausible in my mind is a liquid substance other than water, although water is certainly not impossible. the apparent translucence is also disturbing if it is a solid. |
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| - Author's History - 11 June, 2007 | |||||
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Ati says |
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| Actually, another explanation for the ripples just occured to me - martian soil is, if I remember correctly, filled with bits of frozen CO2 - if the water was melting them, then you'd either get bubbles popping up from time to time, or water gradually seeping into the thawed soil below - both of which would cause ripples without disturbing the micro-atmosphere |
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| - Author's History - 11 June, 2007 | |||||
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poss says |
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| Is it actually translucent? or just reflective? The melting points of things we are familiar with are different on mars, due to the low atmosphere. low pressure makes it harder for things to freeze. |
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| - Author's History - 11 June, 2007 | |||||
| Akioz says |
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| i don't think mars has any kind of life right now... although this water may prove that there is some simple life forms. |
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| - Author's History - 11 June, 2007 | |||||
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Ati says |
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| Poss: If you look in the mid/upper right hand corner of the image, there is continuity between the parts apparantly submerged, and the parts extending. It doesn't look like reflection to me. |
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| - Author's History - 11 June, 2007 | |||||
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zenmonk says |
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| Looks like it may be water that welled up from underground and froze over quickly. Those aren't ripples though, unless some ripples form perpendicular to others. I've seen such patterns in ice before though. Are those blueberries I see? |
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| - Author's History - 12 June, 2007 | |||||
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jared.nance says |
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| so, having looked up some of the relevant mars atmospheric parameters,and examined the phase diagram for water, it is clear that if this is liquid water, it is bound to be a very, very, very rare occurrence indeed. however, its existence is not precluded outright. the atmospheric pressure on mars ranges from 6-10mbar (contrast with 1013mbar on earth). at 6mbar, there is no stable liquid phase of water - sublimation is the only permitted phase transition. on the other hand, at 10mbar, there is a temperature range of 5K, 10K on the outside, at which liquid water is stable. the conditions would have to be utterly perfect, but it is not unrealistic - on a warm day, the temperatures do approach or exceed the band in which liquid water is stable. |
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| - Author's History - 13 June, 2007 | |||||
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jared.nance says |
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| and zenmonk, where is this region of perpendicularity that you are pointing to? | |||||
| - Author's History - 13 June, 2007 | |||||
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zenmonk says |
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| The linked picture is two pictures side by side...consider only one side or the other; in the center of either image, there is a large, mostly straight channel running at an angle of about 70 degrees next to a 'wedge' formation. At the top of the channel, there is a cross-gully creating the impression of a 'T'. At the cross of the 'T' there appears to be some turbulence suggestive of gentle upwelling of liquid. Just below the cross, there are ~ 5 'ripples' at 45 degree angles running upward from left to right, and above them, another 'ripple' at a 45 degree angle downward from left to right. Directly above the 'channel', near the top of the image is another 'channel' with 'ripples' conforming more or less to the pattern of the topmost ripple last mentioned. It occurrs to me today that the 'ripples' could be shadows caused by submerged features, but I'm not convinced of anything at this point. Also, near the point of the 'wedge', there is a constriction of the 'channel' and what looks like more turbulence. |
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| - Author's History - 13 June, 2007 | |||||
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Re(V)aN says |
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| i have to ask a few questions here. firstly, it does look like a liquid to me, not ice. second- just because a microorganism can live on mars doesnt necessarily mean a human can third- why would you WANT to live on mars? it's a frozen... ROCK. the only reason i can think for the government to spend all that money on it is to either put military installations in, or put a lot more money in that is used, and basically use it as a high end money de-laundering thing (so much goes in, only so much comes out as product or payment, the rest comes out as money that doesnt exist that can be spent on secret budgets). it could even be a hoax. i dont believe that it IS a hoax, but it IS possible. think about all these earthly things that we have. food, water, other people admittely most of them are morons, but there are quite a few nice and intelligent people who you probably enjoy being around. you cant expect them to all move to mars with you. what about internet, would you want to have to be like 8 hours behind on internet connection? do you know how long that would take to download a youtube video? and FORGET online gaming. plus, it takes an awful lot of money to move there. why not just live here, on tested ground? in a few years, oil production will decrease by a LOT, millions of people everywhere will die, and the smartest and strongest will live. and hopefully the smartest will be smart enough to NOT kill the strong ones off, because manual labor will come back into fashion. and who better than armstrong to power you xbox 360 after oil becomes 350$ a barrel? |
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| - Author's History - 27 June, 2007 | |||||
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zenmonk says |
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| It's pretty well established that humans can't live on Mars without extensive protective measures against the harsh environment. That aside, the discovery of life on Mars would cause something of a paradigm shift, if not in the life sciences, in religious circles. Proof of life on other planets would pretty effectively prove that we are not unique in the universe. Most scientists are coming around to the notion that life is pretty ubiquitous, but proof would be very cool. Why would one want to live on Mars? Mostly to get away from all the bullshit here on Earth. I'd be more than happy to do without a fast internet connection for the opportunity to set up an independent self-governed colony. |
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| - Author's History - 27 June, 2007 | |||||
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Ati says |
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| I'd happily live on mars for a few months. Beautiful place. |
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| - Author's History - 27 June, 2007 | |||||
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Re(V)aN says |
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| i'd rather go to hawaii its cheaper, less of a trip, and a bit warmer |
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| - Author's History - 28 June, 2007 | |||||
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Ati says |
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| Hawaii has nothing on Mars. I mean, the view from the peak of Olypus Mons must be stunning. The thing's the highest mountain in the solar system. |
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| - Author's History - 28 June, 2007 | |||||
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Viczy says |
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| Fuck Olympus Mons; you can't distinguish the slope from the horizon. On the other hand, somwhere like Enceladus; where the horizon is lower anyway and you've got Saturn taking up a sizeable chunk of the sky, not to mention the other moons; would be worth the trip. | |||||
| - Author's History - 01 July, 2007 | |||||
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Ati says |
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| True. Heck, even good old Luna has same fairly impressive views. |
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| - Author's History - 01 July, 2007 | |||||
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