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Yue says | |||
| Can you do it? Can we? Is it even possible? How do you go about it? Do you even try? This had a good discussion going, between gringostar, p0ss, hobs, and fibbon in the chat, so I'd figure I would make a discussion out of it as a thread, and see how it goes. Thanks to them. Sorry if I forgot anyone! |
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| Total Topic Karma: 35 | - More by this Author | |||
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Constantine says |
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| My philosophy is simple: because each person only can change a very very very small amount of things when it comes to the world, to do that and be happy for what you can do. Striving to change what is impossible is what causes so much grief and pain in this world, and so much dissatisfaction. We are raised to believe we can all be movie stars and astronauts and when you realize that life, while fun, is hard, you have to work to achieve anything, and really if you are handed things on a silver platter you will be dissatisfied with them. So, accept your fate, and not only that, but love it. Life may be meaningless, but it is meaningless that it is meaningless, in a billion years the human race will be dead, and no one will remember us, so why worry  |
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| - 19 February, 2007 | ||||||
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p0ss says |
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| we change the world through our very perception of it. Think happy and things work out, think unhappy and everything goes wrong. Nothing is unachievable given sufficent determination. |
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| - 20 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Fibonacci's Wench says |
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| i think that too many people around our age have more power than they think when it comes to changing the world to a better place to reside in..... everyone thinks that it won't work coz they r nothing in the scheme of things but if everyone said yes my opinion counts and I am going to make a difference then it would work. i mean any difference i might add...... Doesnt have to be world domination  |
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| - 20 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Fibonacci's Wench says |
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| We can make our existence more comfortable.... Ofcause we will die out we havent even been here that long. The Earth was just fine without us but fact of the matter is we are here so may aswell make it worthwhile instead of accepting defeat. The world got to the stage it is at through different people putting their "2 cents" in. So why can't we contribute? We can't go backwards. |
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| - 20 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Joe says |
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| I don't really see a point in living if you aren't going to make a difference. I don't mean that you have to cure cancer or anything; just working at a retail store and checking people out is enough. If we all don't work together, nothing will ever get done. | ||||||
| - 20 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Constantine says |
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| Joe, there is no point in living, that is the point! Haha |
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| - 20 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Cappy says |
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| I plan on creating strong AI that will dominate the earth and perhaps annihilate the planet with nano-tech. But on the thought of changing the world .. it's very easy to change the world. The problem is .. making that change a positive one. A positive change can't be made alone. To make a positive change you must rally your colleagues for your cause. On a non-world scale, it is possible to create a small, but important, change by creating something new like Shuzak or Digg. That being said, I don't think working at a retail store is changing anything. It's just considered "living" in my book. I come to that decision because I ask myself "Do I care who works at store XXX" and the answer is actually "no". Retail is a thankless job. Sometimes you get to steer people in the right direction and keep them from buying a piece of crap or help them find something new that may inspire them, but I wouldn't say it is life-changing for anyone. |
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| - 20 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Cappy says |
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| @p0ss - I tend to talk one-sided sometimes but you're right. Generally, the world is what we make of it and how much effort we spend. Infact that's what those "Guide to becoming successful" tutorials/ebooks/audiobooks/videos are. Basically it just tells you that you can be successful. That's what the buyer wants to hear, right? Once you believe you can be successful you begin spending your time differently and instead of wasting it you begin to use it to become "successful". Then, you spend your time becoming successful and learning through failures/successes until you actually are successful. Most of us are capable of anything, but we choose to sit at home and watch TV instead because we enjoy it. |
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| - 20 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Joe says |
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| If there are no cashiers at the grocery store thought, you won't be able to buy your food. That seems to me to be a big deal. | ||||||
| - 20 February, 2007 | ||||||
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paul says |
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| You guys heard of the butterfly effect? nuff said |
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| - 20 February, 2007 | ||||||
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GringoStar says |
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| yes, but anybody can fill the position, it doesn't take drive or ambition. most cashiers are there for the pay, nothing else. and it changes nothing, i guess that is the main point I am trying to make. | ||||||
| - 20 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Lacey says |
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| Either you can change the world, or it will change you. | ||||||
| - 20 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Fibonacci's Wench says |
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| Well no one likes working... It really doesnt come down to the work that u do to create money to live in this existence. i personally think that it is the little things that add up. For instance, macdonalds is a massive corporation and is killing the Amazon at a rapid rate because they are farming cows there. If I dont buy macdonalds then my money does not contribute to this. Same goes for all massive corporations..... If enough people stop buying then they will have no need to produce as much or produce at all. That is obviously just a tiny slither of insight into how u can personally make small changes... it takes time.... It is quite obvious to me that protesting does not work ect so u have to find different alley's. |
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| - 20 February, 2007 | ||||||
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paul says |
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| @Fibbonacci's Wench I like working, i'm self employed.. lol |
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| - 21 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Rathmaster says |
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| 1 human might be able to hurt the earth like a speck of dust hurts you. but 5 billion people can hurt like a lead weight to the head | ||||||
| - 21 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Fibonacci's Wench says |
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| Exactly.... So if everyone started changing just that one thing how many people would that be? I am trying to be realistic... Alot of the people who don't believe that things can be changed have been involved in protests ect with heaps of people ect but no one listens to that anymore..... You have to be realistic in the things that you can possibly change for the better. If everyone just gives up then...... I really hate to think what the world would be like if there wasnt another John Lennon ect The list goes on.... |
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| - 21 February, 2007 | ||||||
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GringoStar says |
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| or another lenin... the world can and has been changed, but almost never for the betterment of mankind. or maybe so. who knows anymore. I guess the real thing here is that we need more specific actions, not just talking but doing. im all theory and no action digg? | ||||||
| - 21 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Fibonacci's Wench says |
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| haha yea well I am the same..... its a shit really... |
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| - 21 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Ati says |
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| It is easy to change your world (the one that you see and interact with every day). It is harder to change everyone else's world. It is possible for one person to change the world, but it has to be a certain kind of person. They have to have determination, skill, and a good amount of luck. The other way to change the world is to join with many other people, and make a small contribution for a bigger collective effect. Really the only thing you can do is to try to better yourself, and keep an eye out for an ooportunity to try and better everyone else as well. |
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| - 21 February, 2007 | ||||||
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RedStar says |
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| Each person's ability and influence is limited...However, the ability and influence of a good idea is unlimited. I'm not saying ideas somehow rule over the material reality...it's more likely the other way around. However, consider this: If I give you an apple, then you have an apple and I don't. If I give you my idea then we both have an idea, and neither one of us has to lose anything. This is the beauty of it. I think in order to radically change our world we need a good theory that completely refutes everything capitalism, neo-liberalism and religion stands for. For me, that theory would be Marxism...But that's only the general framework---There's much to be done to improve the theory so that it can make more sense to the people today, and be more easily accepted and understood. |
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| - 22 February, 2007 | ||||||
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GringoStar says |
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| I agree with you for the most part, only I have problems with Marxism. Mainly that it changes control to the state, but the control is still there. Thats why I digg on the Anarcho-synicalism. freedom and equality, somehow. | ||||||
| - 22 February, 2007 | ||||||
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RedStar says |
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| It's clear that both communism and anarchism (the more serious brands, such as Anarcho-Syndicallists) aims to achieve a classless and stateless society through revolution. But here's the million-dollar question: How to get there? I agree with Engels when he said "Revolution is a authoritarian act". But authoritarian does not necessarily mean hierarchical. Therefore a legitimate, revolutionary movement can be authoritarian but also without leaders...And in my opinon, should be. A revolutionary movement should be authoritarian in the sense that it should oppose ALL attempts of the bourgeoisie to gain political and economic power---And I cannot imagine an Anarchist revolution that allows the bourgeoisie to roam around, freely attacking and sabotaging the fruits of revolution. By the way, I think the Anarcho-syndicallists are more Marxist than most Leninists. |
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| - 22 February, 2007 | ||||||
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GringoStar says |
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| I have a headache right now, so I am a bit foggy. I wasn't really referring to classical Marxism. I think that it is far too outdated to fit with our world. I am trying to read more up to date theory right now, but I haven't had all that much time. I think that we may have a very similar mind set here, only differing on semantics. I think thats the word. My brain is rotting right now. I think that for any revolution to really work, it need to be global. We cannot have competing nations anymore. It is useless. I may be preaching to the choir though. The revolution must also be in our way of life, that I why I believe that (at least for anarchists) we must find a balance between social anarchism and individual anarchism. Both ideas are good, but not alone. Oh, and what you said about the idea, reminds me of V for Vendetta. And, just to add that nerd status, I read the comic first. |
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| - 22 February, 2007 | ||||||
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RedStar says |
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| I wasn't really referring to classical Marxism. I think that it is far too outdated to fit with our world. I disagree. I think that for any revolution to really work, it need to be global. We cannot have competing nations anymore. That's a given. Stateless also implies nation-less and border-less. It is useless. I may be preaching to the choir though. The revolution must also be in our way of life, Once again I disagree. That would be called "lifestyle anarchism", which as far as I know has little to do with Anarcho-Syndiacalism----and even less to do with world-wide revolution. A small band of people living in communes and boycotting Coca-Cola isn't gonna bring down capitalism. |
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| - 22 February, 2007 | ||||||
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GringoStar says |
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| I was talking about a blend. No revolution will work without destroying the idea of property. And that cannot be done without changing the way we live and think about the things around us. | ||||||
| - 22 February, 2007 | ||||||
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RedStar says |
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| You cannot change your way of living when you are living under the system. The food you eat, the water you drink, the novel you read, everything is brought to you by capitalism---On that you have no choice. It's either capitalism or starvation. Sure, you can farm your own carrots and dig your own well---But how much time are you going to be left with to think, speak and act? |
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| - 22 February, 2007 | ||||||
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GringoStar says |
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| again, I think they come hand in hand. I think that they need each other. | ||||||
| - 22 February, 2007 | ||||||
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RedStar says |
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| I "believe in" the destruction of property even though I have never experienced a property-free environment. That's proof enough that people are capable of intellectual "enlightenment" without being physically tormented and self-abused. |
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| - 22 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Rathmaster says |
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| all hail eris, eh? | ||||||
| - 23 February, 2007 | ||||||
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RedStar says |
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| "The desire for destruction is also a creative desire." Ain't that the truth. |
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| - 23 February, 2007 | ||||||
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RyeGye24 says |
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| I dont think that anyone (with very few exceptions) can. It is beyond our control where society goes and how it evolves. Its one of the few things we've created that cannot be controlled (the other such things being culture and economies). | ||||||
| - 23 February, 2007 | ||||||
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RyeGye24 says |
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| Ya know i sorta think its funny all the people "raging against the system" while chatting on their computers that were only made available through a capitalist system. Are you gonna make your own computer and maintain your own cables for the internet? I dont think that some of you realize just how deeply these systems are ingrained in the global human civilizations. If the current system was replaced, everything would just stop. everyone would, all at once, go to get new jobs, which wouldnt be there because nobody would be offering jobs, and with no authority there would be no organization as to how to form jobs. We'd be starting from the ground up, and why would that work any better than what works now, a system formed from thousands of years of societal evolution. Also, very very few people would be willing to give up what they have to earn it all back. And though the ideals of marxism may seem good, the ideals of any system are good, thats why they're called "ideals". I honestly believe there is no way to actually make marxism work. I think that every attempt will end up in corruption, or temporary anarchy eventually resolving in a different government. |
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| - 23 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Ati says |
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| Your right. Capitalism is a system that allows for progress. People are constantly trying to build a better mousetrap, because if they do and its successful, they make money and their quality of living goes up. It's a dynamic system, Communism is frozen. There's no drive to build a better mouse-trap, beyond getting rid of a few mice in your home. Your quality of life is exactly the same whether you innovate or not. Thus, the society freezes, stagnates, and eventually dies. A free, capitalist, market is required for the human race to advance. |
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| - 23 February, 2007 | ||||||
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RyeGye24 says |
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| Exactly! You vocalized that much better than i was able to. Karma++ for you. | ||||||
| - 23 February, 2007 | ||||||
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RedStar says |
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| Ya know i sorta think its funny all the people "raging against the system" while chatting on their computers that were only made available through a capitalist system. A lot of capitalist revolutionaries who overthrew feudalism were actually feudal aristocracts themselves. Just because I was born under a barbaric, cannibalistic system doesn't mean I have to like it! If the current system was replaced, everything would just stop. Yeah, I'll bet the Earth will stop rotating and Magic Jesus will return to condemn 99% of Earth's population to Hell if communism ever suceeds. *Laugh* The exact same old wives' tale that despots have been telling their subjects for thousands of years. When will people learn to think for themselves? |
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| - 23 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Ati says |
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| Look, he raised some perfectly valid points, and just dismissing them as 'old wives tales' is very bad debating form. Also, have you noticed that the aristocrats who overthrow systems tend to be the ones who end up in the new governing roles? Also, I'm almost positive he didn't mean the 'last judgement' or end of the world would come. He just meant that without the same corporate innovation, our technology would collapse and we'd be thrown into a dark age. By definition, an overthrow would disrupt the current way of doing things. If a communist revolution were to occur tomorrow, the companies that make and distibute food would be shut down. Food would run out in Santa Fe in less than a week. Power companies too. No electricity, no food, no commercial water. This is looking a lot like a dark age to me. Of course, there would probably be an effort by the revolutionaries to set up a temporary government and try to provide all those things. It wouldn't be completely successful and millions of people would die horribly. But lets say it worked at all, and they managed to train a bunch of goverment employees to do all these complex tasks without killing an inordinate amount of people. Now we've got power back, and MRE's but probably not internet or phone. And guess what? There's a government in place that handles everything. It controls the country, controls who we talk to, controls how much food we get, and water. Forget dark age, this is looking more like a totilitarian state. I personally would rather try to fix the current system, rather than going through something like this and ending up with a totilitarian society and a rapidly colapsing technology market. |
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| - 23 February, 2007 | ||||||
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RyeGye24 says |
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| @RedStar [sarcasm]Of course when i said that everything would stop i was talking about physics and was talking also about communism immediately taking its place[/sarcasm] By stop i mean this: if the system is taken down, then all the current companies would need to be stopped and completely reformatted with the communist system. This includes farming and delivery companies, along with grocery stores, and places like walmart. Not to mention, prices would also all have to be adjusted. And all without a solid leader so that noone could be corrupted. Do you honestly believe that everyones going to just agree right away on everything? So obviously to get all these reforms done within even a month (although I believe it would probably actually be more like several years) it would take a leader that would need to cal all the shots, because without absolute power arguementing would make it take to long. Also thats a month with no food, electtricity, running water, or anything. Do you really think people will just wait quietly while someone else is making the desicions? And do you really think that one person who's in control of everything is just going to stay nice and uncorrupt? and even if he/she does, can the same be said about his/her predecessor? |
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| - 23 February, 2007 | ||||||
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RyeGye24 says |
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| and again thank you Ati, i actually posted my thing before i read yours, so sorry if there are some repeat arguements. | ||||||
| - 23 February, 2007 | ||||||
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Ati says |
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| Yeah, I think we both said about the same thing, although we both wen't into detail in different areas. | ||||||
| - 23 February, 2007 | ||||||
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